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Religion? [07 Sep 2006|01:57pm]

halidaisy
X-posted everywhere:

I am an Anthropology/Religion major and for one of my courses my Prof wants us to find websites concerning religion or of a religious nature. Some of you may disagree, but I think that a sort of religion has created itself around Daniel Quinn's books, the "followers" have a name (B) and they definitely share a common way of looking at the world. I was wondering if anyone had some helpful websites (aside from ishmael.com) that are particularly useful in illustrating this. Any help would be hugely appreciated.
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NARNIA (a deeper look at leavers v takers) [14 Dec 2005|10:18pm]

socalledeconomy

It’s taken me a while to put my finger on what it was that I felt after seeing the LWW movie—it was a very odd feeling.  When I left the theater, I had a smirk on my face and a sated sense of self-satisfaction.  I felt as if I had just insulted an asshole to his face without him realizing it or had just been let in on a private joke. 

 

I went to see Narnia with some friends this past Sunday.  As a child, I read the entire series over and over and loved every page (Voyage of the Dawn Treader was always my favorite, The Magician’s Nephew was a close second).  When I heard a movie was in the works, I bought the books again and read them all in less than a month.  Even as a child, I recognized the religious undertones but interpreted them in my own agnostic way.  I was far more intrigued by the diverse, untainted natural otherworlds and the themes of escapism that pervaded these books.  (Okay, I also used to spin around in front of my mirror hoping, like Wonder Woman did, to turn into someone else—but that’s a separate therapy session.  Keep your snide comments to yourself; it’s just too easy…)

 

I’ve read some journals on here that bemoan the religious tone of the film as a not-so-subtle attempt by the intrusive religious right to use the media as a tool to indoctrinate and recruit.  Oddly enough, some of these same people are arguing from the other side when it comes to Brokeback Mountain without realizing their own hypocrisy.  According to the Department of the Obvious, pots and kettles are both black. 

 

I didn’t see this film as an evangelical tool AT ALL (nor do I expect Brokeback Mountain to be an endorsement of anal sex for the masses).  In fact, I see the exact opposite of a religious diatribe in this movie.  On the surface, the obvious religious iconology was unmistakable, but there are deeper layers to this movie that the average viewer wouldn’t notice.  This, I believe, shows the genius of Disney.  Others might have noticed this on a subliminal level, or maybe not at all.  Maybe I’m just hallucinating, but here goes… 

 

The movie was not an endorsement of religion; it was a complex and subtle illustration of the ridiculous cultural/religious memes and norms of western civilization.  Looking through the lenses of Ishmael, readers of Daniel Quinn will likely understand what I mean here.  What I saw splayed across the movie screen was a much deeper elaboration of the cultural story that we tell ourselves.  Narnia shows us just how dysfunctional our ingrained attitudes actually are by putting them on the big screen for us to ponder for two hours. 

 

More on Women, the Environment, Equality and SaviorsCollapse )

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It's good to be home. [01 Jul 2005|12:48am]

markbass2
[ mood | artistic ]

Ah, fresh air.

I deleted my journal about a year ago, and created a new one a few weeks ago. I used to be markbass. Now I'm markbass2. I'm also the creator of this community. Nice to meet you.

It's also good to be in the middle of summer. I just finished my summer homework and can begin to read Quinn's books for another round. It always seems to happen that way. I get fired up after I read the books, and then it eventually fades with school and such. Ironic how the structured schools I and most students are a part of live up to Quinn's descriptions and predictions.

It makes me feel very good that this community has not been forgotten. Let's keep it this way.

It's funny. Saying "I guess it's a few of us against the world" would make terrible sense here. Instead, something more along the lines of "I guess it's a whole culture of us against the world (literally), and a few of us trying to tell people this" would more appropriately apply.

Adios
Mark

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[26 Jun 2005|01:25pm]

ju_i_ce
I just want to let people know about the weather were having in my area this summer. I live in Kingston, on the shore of Lake Ontario where it meets the St. Lawrence. Close to New York state. We're east of many large cities, Toronto, Detroid, there are more but they aren't neccessary to name. Since we're east of them, their pollution effects us. Last summer, we had only 18 days of smog warning. That was the whole summer, right into fall. So far this year, our first smog warning lasted 21 days, in a row. Then we had some rain and it cooled down, and we're already into another warning. Thats over a month already. Its 30 degrees celsius, 86 degrees fahrenheit. I have the urge to go buy an air conditioner, something I have not needed for as long as I have lived here, my whole life, 17 years. You might say, well there are plenty of other places this hot. Well, Kingston was never this hot, our summers were very comfortable, I could go outside and lay on the ground - as long as I was in the shade, it was great. But when I go outside, the heat is so great that it feels like the air I am breathing is lacking in oxygen. I don't have asthma, and I am almost having breathing problems. I work at Zellers, the Canadian version of Wal-Mart - and as I step outside into the parking lot I cannot last 5 minutes outside.
This summer is going to be more than twice as hot as last. Its because of pollution. Something needs to be done, or people won't be able to go outside without safety precautions. If any elderly or asthmatic people exerted themselves in this weather they would put themselves in great danger.
All that people will do is buy more air conditioners. We've sold out everytime we get them at work. This is only temporary relief, it will make it worse in the long run. The heat is so bad it even killed my laptop, which I need to take in to get repaired. I guess thats enough news for everyone. Maybe some action can be taken before its too late.
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Ishmael's Message [03 May 2005|03:44pm]

dragon_talons
It bothers me a little that even after having read Ishmael you still titled this page "BCulture: Share your views of our crumbling planet". One of the main points that Quinn and animism are about is that the world does not belong to us, we belong to the world. When you say "OUR crumbling planet" you undermine Ishmael and support Taker's Mother Culture.

I understand what you meant to say and I truly don't mean to harp or preach, it's just some constructive criticism.
6 comments|post comment

Immunology [04 Apr 2005|10:23pm]

oneiromancer666
The reason that the Takers succeeded in seizing the world from the Leavers is because the collective of Leaver cultures lacked an immune system. What was needed was immunological culture. An immunological culture appears for all intents and purposes as a Leaver culture under normal conditions. However, when an immunological culture identifies a Taker neighbor it mobilizes into immunological mode and annihilates the Taker culture, possibly destroying itself in the process. If the ancient world had been populated by immunological cultures rather than Leaver cultures, then we would not be living in a Taker world today. No sufficiently complex system, be it a peaceful global culture or a biological organism, can survive without an immune system.
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[10 Dec 2004|04:14pm]
clockonthe_wall
hello all...check out a perfect circle's newest album "amotion" it is a work of art. it touches on alot of the problem (specific to america) we face today. Maynard is one of my favorite Artists. i've learned through 'house of leaves' that life is based on a center that doesn't exhist, so how then is there truly a reality? i think it may be appropriate to something Quinn as written about (obvious paraphrasing) mother culture acts as humanity's shield to truth, which should not be confused with reality. i see truth far more tangible then any substanced acquired on earth. do you agree?
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[21 Nov 2004|07:14pm]

ju_i_ce
[ mood | tired ]

Hey, guess I'm the new guy. I read Ishmael about a year ago, and it made so much sense. Sinec then I've read most of Quinn's other books, even The Holy. I have moments where I feel the urge to make some change, but it eventually dies out. Living can do that to all my good plans ^_^. Anyways, since then I've gotten a job at Zellers, the Canadian version of Wal-Mart. I notice how much people buy, its insane. Not only do I see how big a part retail plays in our lives, I also see the worst come out in people. Everyone seems to be ok with the society we live in, but I find it hard. I can't make good friends in this kind of world, or live comfortably. I seem to stick out like a sore thumb -_-. I will adit that I'm not helping anything, as I provide worthless items to thousands of people a day, and with the money I make I buy myself some worthless items. Like right now, I'm on my new laptop connected to the internet through the wireless network I set up last night. I have $500 sitting in the bank which I will put back into the system.
I am probably rambling on but I have the urge to be heard, by a few people at least. Mostly because I'm feeling a bit depressed. Everyone around me is fitting in perfectly, everything is going great for them, better than it has in the past, they all have someone. I post in my blog but all my "friends" are the ones who have everything going for them, so they don't feel any need to reply. None of them are on MSN or AIM either it seems, No one is free after school. My ex just got a new boyfriend. We started talking again around the same time, and I realised I still had feelings for her, so I was hoping I might get another chance. But just the other day she said she is "happier than she has ever been lately," and I don't want to ruin that for her.
Oh well, thats about it. I know there isn't much here about Quinn's books, its been a while since I read them, I might have to refresh my memory. Hopefully I can meet some open minded people to talk to on here :).

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[19 Nov 2004|09:41pm]
clockonthe_wall
i don't exactly know how many ways i can apologise to you for eating up your time. but, if all my last post did was ramble and be confusing, i'll just say it out-right...i am sorry. although, i don't disagree with everything i said, i actually side with you on most of the topics discussed...

anyway, i'm honestly pretty internet illiterate, though it would appear i'm on all the time. that, being said, if you'd like me to leave, just show me the door and i'll go...if not, has anyone read House of Leaves? i'm only on like the 70th page, but it still is blowing me away...it's that good.
2 comments|post comment

[06 Nov 2004|11:30pm]
clockonthe_wall
agreed.

am i. loser. i am. i. loser. am. i loser. i. i. spork.
1 comment|post comment

Capital Punishment [07 Nov 2004|10:39pm]

_diamondstarcar
Humans have the unfortunate ability to inflict pain on others that has absolutely nothing to do with survival. This is the problem with humanity. We do not harm or kill others in order to survive, we kill people as an effect of human emotions, which are completely irrational and illogical. Human emotions and all actions caused by them are completely selfish. Being selfish is a natural, and permissible act… when it comes to actual life-or-death survival. Animals are not wrong to kill each other because they only do so when their lives or the lives of their kin are directly endangered. They do not kill each other when a life threat is no longer posed. Humans do the exact opposite. After someone’s life is no longer in danger (a murderer has been incarcerated for life), we will still kill them. The desire to kill him is based only in emotion, not logic or reasoning.

Capital punishment only propagates this. These people that we sentence to the death penalty pose no threat to the life of our society. We are completely capable of incapacitating these people, preventing them from being a threat to us.

It should be the government’s duty to make decisions and create policies based on logic and reasoning. Never should a government enact laws based upon ideas such as revenge, anger, and hate. The government should spend its time reforming people so that our society can function in ways beneficial to the entire populace. Killing people reforms no one. Capital punishment does nothing to benefit society as a whole. It only benefits those with a personal vendetta against the person convicted. Public policy should not be rooted in the desires of one person, it should be based in the collective feelings of the nation.
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[30 Oct 2004|03:20pm]
clockonthe_wall
p.s. every culture murders (thank you Discovery channel.)

p.p.s. i can't reply directly to a post...i don't have an e-mail adress, and this community isn't important enough to me to bother getting one, besides i'd rather evreryone see what i have to say...
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[30 Oct 2004|03:06pm]
clockonthe_wall
youre viewpoint up untill this time has always been the end of "civilization". so, my arguments have always denounced this idea, don't all of the sudden try to turn this around once again and make me the asshole. in fact the last argument made was all about how we were running out of the resources humans need to survive, kind of ironic, considering you claim the leaver way is more successful (allow me to explain: why would you, what you assume is my problem as a "taker", against me if you would rather of had us live as leavers anyway?) this isn't going to get anywhere, i realise. because you can't ever provide me with the simple answers im looking for, because you can't see past the fact that there is someone who read all of the books (-providence and the holy) and didn't agree with it entirely. after all this time, it only proves that you aren't ready for the tribulation of explaining your existential theories.

i've been playing the devil's advocate. so now, i truly am done. the next post i make will only be in agreement, because i do agree...mostly, with what you have to say. i'm just sorry that you didn't stay above me in each debate. i don't want to sound arrogant, but its true...as soon as you bring in destructive words like "idiot" and "asshole" you've allready lost.

sorry for delaying any progress.

-zach
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[30 Oct 2004|03:04pm]
clockonthe_wall

secularxprayer: i would love to have a decent DISCUSSION with you, not a debate not a "fuck you" fight, but a calm discussion. so, if you would please begin, i will reply kindly as well.

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[25 Oct 2004|11:59am]

secularxprayer
Hi, I just wanted to give this community a bit of rejuvination. I don't have much to say though! Someone post something! Have you all read Beyond Civilization? What did you think? I thought it was the hardest to get through, seeing as I read it last and it was boring as hell. Was there something good at the end cuz I don't think I even got there...
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[10 Oct 2004|01:33am]
clockonthe_wall
i'll say all i please. i don't give a shit what you think of my opinions. i could care less if you think i'm self righteouss. you're so pathetic you can't even give me examples using original thought as a resource. all you do is skim through my posts and pick out a sentence or two you can comment on (and its usually ignorantly taken anyway). do you think youre the only people who've ever thought this way? im sure you don't (i had to write that because i know you'd copy and paste it to your next bullshit post and mince my words...fuck you). anyway, millions of people who date back to prehistory shared similar views (i.e. Christ), and look where we are. you remind me of people standing in the middle of new york in some movie holding a sign that says the end is near. WHY GODDAMNIT?!?! explain yourself!!! shit! your pathetic. you can definately expect more "pollution" from me, and lots of it. i don't fucking care if you think im an idiot. look at what you've accomplished. you mentioned that i was just like everyone else, well nice job getting me to listen to you. if you think i think like everyone else how do you expect to make any changes with your fake cause. all your doing is brushing me away, like i'm some pathetic idiot not worthy of your prescious time. whatever. i tried to be civil... fuck that. and FUCK YOU.
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[29 Sep 2004|06:38pm]
clockonthe_wall
wow.

once again...all i hear from everyone is how wrong i am. no explenations...well, valid ones anyway. oil isn't the only source of power...nor are the powering systems we rely on now (this will tie in to the evolution point i'll bring up later)but that is interesting i haven't yet heard that. where did you get it one of your conspiracy web-sites? anyway, my views are apparently irrelavent to what the intent is for any of you to be here. but, it's ironic that you'll jump at the chance to pull out another fun fact to throw in my ignorant face.

by "going beyond" Quinn i meant that i've looked into other contradictory views, and other beliefs. but if you want to take as me being arrogant that's fine.

funny how organised religion is sort of poo-pooed by this philosophy, yet everyones so willing to sell their soul to this one.

i don't agree with anyone i know about anything we discuss. i believe something is what it is when it can't be disputed any further. so far the dispute here has been to call me an idiot using random facts you pull off the internet or some quote from an author backing Quinn (figuratively speaking). do you honestly think that times have never been this bad or worse, and the only way the spiral end is in humanities destruction? come on.

youre right people are assholes. but you're wrong if you think you can learn from animals and tribesmen. i am not CIVILIZATION. i don't agree with the majority of naiive humans do. but, evolution is relative. it only happens as a necessity for survival. so, if evolution were true (and i think it is) then we would evolve to the conditions, as every animal has.

p.s. don't try to tell me conditions will be too bad and we'll all just die...because life moved on after the dinasaurs, and we're far more hearty then they were.

and as much as it doesn't seem like it, i do respect you and your opinions. like i said im here to learn and possibly change (in the rare times that i actually go online) i don't appreciate being called stupid and ignorant, or being referred to as common-thought. because that isn't how i view things.


finally (if you'd stop taking everything i say at face value and out of context) you'll notice that i said every animal would kill if it had the opportunity...that means (and let me dumb this one down for you so there's no confusion) if any species of animal, even elephants and butterflies and all the pretty litle things, had the brain copacity humans do, they would murder and exterminate, for the growth and expantion of there species. quinn even touches on it with his jellyfish analogy.

and, thanks, but i have a dictionary of my own.
4 comments|post comment

[24 Sep 2004|07:36pm]

stupac2
My friends and I recently started a group called "Youth for Action" based on the ideas from Daniel Quinn's books. We operate by his premise of changing minds, which is our entire goal. Any input from and of you would be appreciated. Keep in mind that it's new.

http://www.livejournal.com/community/youthforaction
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[14 Sep 2004|08:46pm]
clockonthe_wall
Have you read Quinn's work? Do you understand what he said about 'war' among tribal people? Did you read what I said? Every species fights one another. We are the only culture in the only species that SYSTEMATICALLY EXTERMINATES one another. Other cultures and species only war as much as necessary to defend their boundaries. It's a defensive system, not offensive

that's completely untrue. like i said before, any animal would murder i it had the opportunity.

First, realize that each person in this community who believes things in a similar fashion as Dumela and I have all grown up in the same way that you have. At early ages we didn't think that anything was wrong, and we were convinced that things would always be this way. However, we decided to approach the topic later on with an open mind. We took a step back from our presuppositions and said, well, there may be another way. That's why we're all where we are.

actually, my ideas
beyond killing animals and taking land (MUCH LIKE EVERY OTHER ANIMAL ON EARTH...) what exactly is humanities big problem...you spent all this tiem telling me we're on the brink of destruction...HOW?!?!?!?! WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? (no more using war and other species against me, because that's not even valid in and of itself). im not here to find another way. im here as a last resort to see if 'another way' is even necessary. you haven't even told me one good idea...all you do is tell me why im wrong, and that i don't read enough...that's pathetic.

From the looks of it, you refuse to take a step back and evaluate things in a new light. You're still clinging to a childlike mindset.

excuse me... uhhhhm, why else would i have come to this community? im the most open minded person i've ever...met...? seriously, what seems to you, is wrong. stop telling me how im wrong, and tell me how your right...if you are, maybe you'll change my mind...im not at all stubborn.

We may be quoting books with new ideas, but you're quoting the same things we've been telling ourselves for 10,000 years, things that are amazingly easy to state with confidence because most everybody agrees with you. I have absolutely no respect for that.

actually, nobody here agrees with me, and my views are entirely different then anyone i know...you just can't seem to deal with somebody whos gone beyond ishmael and quinn himself.
6 comments|post comment

[14 Sep 2004|08:34pm]
clockonthe_wall
pretty much the only thing i'm getting out of all this now...is that i'm stupid for disagreeing with you...

i just love how the debating tactic here is to mince words and take them entirely out of context...i will represent my theories how i see, just because you can't present a valid counterpoint doesn't mean you have to hide behind your personal issues with myself, and opinion. however, im sure this point will also be turnned around and thrown in my face as well...

obviously i have done an astounding amount of research as well. why would i blindly argue something i know little about. we may have read the same books, even. let's not let this digress to a point of who has the bigger brain, im sure you feel the same way...


p.s. books and classes don't represent someone's knowledge of this lifetime.

"all of you" referrs to everyone who disagrees. do you think im vain enough to think that the only people who disagree are the ones saying something back? i don't.

i think the problem isn't that i want you all to agree, it's that what i say gets under your skin.
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